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1] different types of dogs have had this kind of

2] removal of a body of animals from a herd book.

3] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We're

4] actually that's relevant as far as do you accept

5] this proposal in that it allows direct migration;

6] but we're actually not on changing and making the

7] exception yet. Right now we need to either accept

8] this proposal from the committee, modify it or

9] reject it. Daubert.

10] MR. DAUBERT: Well, the Saanen and

11] the Oberhasli come from very close regions in

12] Switzerland. Someplace along the line there was

13] some migration between those two. The Swiss

14] geneticists that have studied DNA of the Saanen

15] and the Oberhasli say that they are two separate

16] breeds. When they look at the Toggenburg it is a

17] combination of Saanen and Oberhasli. If you look

18] at these animals, you've get colored animals out

19] of Saanens, you get white spotted animals out of

20] Oberhasli. I'm against this because I think we're

21] creating another Toggenburg. This is if you look

22]] at the color on them, they look like Toggenburgs.

23] And that's what has been, the Swiss have decided

24] that many, many years ago.

25] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Nixon next.

1] MS. NIXON: Just a clarification:

2] In the event a Saanen breeder has a Sable colored

3] kid and does not want direct migration is there a

4] provision for that colored kid to be put into our

5] Experimental registry?

6] MS. BERRY: When you go into the

7] Experimental registry you have a percentage; and

8] basically you then decide where you're going to go

9] yourself with that animal, because what you have

10] is you have a percentage of what breed that animal

11] is. And so --

12] MS. NIXON: Lelia, that is not the

13] question. This would be a purebred Experimental.

14] MS. BERRY: Yes.

15] MS. NIXON: And so would that

16] purebred animal become a Sable whether the owner

17] wanted it to or not, or have you addressed that

18] issue?

19] MS. BERRY: I haven't addressed

20] that issue.

21] MS. NIXON: Okay.

22] DANIEL CONSIDINE: Burks has not

23] spoken yet.

24] MR. BURKS: To me that would come

25] back to the point of how are you going to register

1] it, if you're going to register it at all.

2] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Comments

3] have been made so far relevant to what you want to

4] do here. Hendrickson.

5] MS. HENDRICKSON: Well, a lot of

6] people have said that they didn't want to see the

7] Sables to get their herd book; and then we get

8] feedback from the Alpine people that they don't

9] want to have a breed that looks look Alpines. I'd

10] like them to consider that many of these mismarked

11] Saanens are in the Alpine herd book right now,

12] because people are using them to breed up to

13] American Alpine. Probably a high percentage of

14] first generation American Alpines are 25 percent

15] Saanens, and they're not going to disappear. And

16] if you're worrying about diluting the rest of the

17] herd books, I think a lot of the other breeds

18] could use some Saanen genetics.

19] (Laughter.)

20] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Here, here.

21] Rowe.

22] DR. DEAN ROWE: Maybe I'm

23] overlooking it. But do you have -- have you --

24] are you recommending a designation for the breed

25] in terms of the breed coding? And also is there

1] interaction with other committees relative to like

2] linear appraisal and so on in terms --

3] MS. BERRY: Well, that really is

4] dependant on whether or not -- I mean, it's kind

5] of like the Nigerian situation. If you say we

6] want to do this, then of course the next step

7] would be the New Breeds Task Force to work out the

8] various situations with the other committees that

9] would be affected. That seemed premature to do

10] before we knew it was going to happen.

11] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I guess we

12] didn't get an answer on whether it will, how the

13] registration number would start. That was a

14] question you had as well. That hasn't been

15] addressed yet. Saum.

16] MS. SAUM: I had a question maybe

17] Joanie can answer. How many white kids are born

18] out of Sables? Is there a percentage like

19] genetically on the color? Can you --

20] DR. DEAN ROWE: That is for a

21] Saanen breed or a geneticist. I can answer the

22] Toggenburg question. And the Oberhasli angle was

23] new for me.

24] (LAUGHTER.)

25] MS. SAUM: I guess --

1] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right.

2] We need to address the group, Director Saum.

3] Address the group with the question.

4] MS. SAUM: My question is we've

5] allowed for the migration of Sables from the

6] Saanen herd book. The minute they are born they

7] can be a Sable if they're colored. They're the

8] same ancestry. They are the same animals; but if

9] you have two Sables that have a white goat, we say

10] "You're not good enough to be a Saanen." I just

11] it's a double standard.

12] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I take it

13] you don't like this proposal in the way that it is

14] created.

15] MS. SAUM: I didn't say that. I

16] was just asking the question.

17] MS. BERRY: I'm sorry. I didn't

18] hear the question.

19] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think she

20] is just stating correctly the way that it will

21] work, if kids are born from white mothers, they

22] become Sables immediately. If colored kids are

23] born -- if white kids are born from colored

24] mothers, Sable mothers, they are not Saanens

25] immediately.

1] MS. BERRY: That's right.

2] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Right. But

3] that is the way it's drawn.

4] MS. SAUM: Why.

5] MS. BERRY: Because the colored

6] gene is in those white animals that you would

7] have.

8] MS. SAUM: It was already in them.

9] That is why they have Sables.

10] MS. BERRY: Well, yes. George.

11] MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. Just a few

12] minutes ago you said "long-term consistency in

13] breeding." And I guess that was the reason I

14] asked how many of these animals were fourth

15] generation. Have they demonstrated that long-term

16] consistency in breeding?

17] MS. BERRY: If you'll look at the

18] statistics and in the Grade herd books, you know,

19] we have in here all the animals in our database

20] that we were able to identify. And as Donna

21] points out, many of these animals have been lost

22] because for a long time we didn't use the correct

23] percentages. So many animals went into the

24] Experimental herd book which we lost track of

25] because they were butchered or sold to commercial

1] dairies without papers and so forth. So there

2] wasn't any incentive for people to really track

3] that.

4] I think there is a lot of evidence from the

5] statistics that Donna has here and from the

6] information in the back with the purebred,

7] American, and Grade that there are a large number

8] of these animals. I was very surprised when I

9] started doing linear. In judging I have seen a

10] number of Sables; but I was surprised that I saw a

11] great many more when I started traveling

12] intensively and started seeing them in the

13] country.

14] DANIEL CONSIDINE: Dean.

15] MS. DEAN: I guess my concern is

16] sort of a -- I mean, I have talked to a couple of

17] people who have Saanens who have said that when

18] they get kids of color born and if there is a

19] Sable book, they are simply going to put "sire

20] unknown, dam unknown," because they do not want

21] animals carrying their herd name to be entered

22] into anything other than a Saanen herd book. So

23] I'm not sure. I mean, Saanens born of color are

24] going to end up other places anyway. So I'm not

25] sure how this addresses that or if it addresses

1] that.

2] MS. BERRY: Well, one of the

3] things we did, as I mentioned, is that we had the

4] Saanen breeders, that is the official club for the

5] Saanens, do the survey, because that seemed a

6] logical place to start, what they thought. And

7] the survey that they did showed that very strongly

8] that they did not want to be in a sub herd book.

9] They did not want the Sables to be in a sub herd

10] book. They wanted them to be in a separate herd

11] book.

12] Now I lost my train of thought. There was

13] something else I was trying to say. That is not

14] the feedback the committee got. The feedback that

15] the committee got was that there would be a large

16] number of people that were anxiously awaiting to

17] put their Sables into a Sable herd book.

18] DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna.

19] MS. REYNA: I might point out that

20] there is an educational component here. If Saanen

21] people, you know, genetically if Saanen people

22] really want to have white Saanens, this would be a

23] great way to do that, because it would identify

24] where the genes are. The genes would be put into

25] another herd book, and if they really wanted to

1] work on removing this, this would be a great

2] opportunity to do that.

3] Now I grant you that takes some education,

4] and they'd have to begin to understand how

5] genetics work; but it would actually afford them

6] an opportunity to keep Saanens more white and get

7] rid of those genetics.

8] MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think we

9] are about ready to move on this one, unless there

10] is something new that we need said here, I'd like

11] to go for a vote on this. Okay. I think it's a

12] roll call vote. And the vote "yes" is to open a

13] herd book. It is Proposal One in Board Action

14] Required; and the implementation would be as is

15] explained in the part of this booklet, and there

16] is no time set in this motion though. Time is not

17] established here. Proceed.

18] MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver.

19] MS. WEAVER: No.

20] MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland.

21] THE WITNESS: Yes.

22] MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder.

23] MR. SNYDER: No.

24] MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder.

25] MS. HELEN SNYDER: No.